It is written in the Bible (Galatians 6:7): "Be not deceived; God
is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."
Here are some men and women who mocked God:
JOHN LENNON:
Some years before, during his interview with an American Magazine,
he said: "Christianity will end, it will disappear. I do not have to argue
aboutthat. I am certain. Jesus was ok, but his subjects were too simple,
today we are more famous than Him" (1966). Lennon, after saying that the
Beatles were more famous than Jesus Christ, was shot six times.
TANCREDO NEVES (President of Brazil):
During the Presidential campaign, he said if he got 500,000 votes
from his party, not even God would remove him from Presidency. Sure he got
the votes, but he got sick a day before being made President, then he died.
CAZUZA (Bi-sexual Brazilian composer, singer and poet):
During a show in ( Rio de Janeiro ), whilst smoking his
cigarette, he puffed out some smoke into the air and said: "God,
that's for you." He died at the age of 32 of AIDS in a horrible manner.
THE MAN WHO BUILT THE TITANIC:
After the construction of the Titanic, a reporter asked him how
safe the Titanic would be. With an ironic tone he said: "Not even God can
sink it" The result: I think you all know what happened to the Titanic.
MARILYN MONROE:
She was visited by Billy Graham during a presentation of a show.
He said the Spirit of God had sent him to preach to her. After hearing what the
Preacher had to say, she said: "I don't need your Jesus". A week
later, she was found dead in her apartment.
BON SCOTT:
The ex-vocalist of the AC/DC. On one of his 1979 songs he sang:
"Don't stop me, I'm going down all the way, down the highway to hell". On the
19th of February 1980, Bon Scott was found dead, he had been choked by his own
vomit.
CAMPINAS/SP IN 2005:
In Campinas, Brazil a group of friends, drunk, went to pick up a
friend. The mother accompanied her to the car and was so worried about the
drunkenness of her friends and she said to the daughter - holding her hand,
who was already seated in the car: "MY DAUGHTER, GO WITH GOD AND MAY HE
PROTECT YOU." She responded: "ONLY IF HE (GOD) TRAVELS IN THE TRUNK, CAUSE INSIDE
HERE IT'S ALREADY FULL". Hours later, news came by that they had been involved in a fatal
accident, everyone had died, the car could not be recognized what type of
car it had been, but surprisingly, the trunk was intact. The police said there
was no way the trunk could have remained intact. To their surprise, inside
the trunk was a crate of eggs, none were broken.
Christine Hewitt:
A Jamaican Journalist and entertainer, said the Bible (Word of God)
was the worst book ever written, in June 2006 she was found burnt beyond
recognition in her motor vehicle.
Many more important people have forgotten that there is no other
name that was given so much authority as the name of Jesus. Many have died,
but only Jesus died and rose again, and he is still alive.
JESUS!!!
I have done my part, Jesus said
"If you are embarrassed about me, I will also be embarrassed about you before my
father."
"What benefit does it have, if a man gains the whole world but loses
his soul? What can man give in exchange of his soul?" (Matthew 16:26)
AMEN
16 comments:
Hi, I got this same email today from a dear friend who is also a fellow Christian. However, she often sends things like this without checking them out. I decided to see how true these statements were, and after finding nothing on snopes.com or truthorfiction.com, I did a Google search for some of the key words and that search led me to your blog, among over 200 other pages.
I am a Christian, but I will have to say I believe the individuals listed here died as a result of their own poor choices, not as a result of any kind of punishment from God. I believe God simply allowed them to experience the consequences of their destructive choices, and the result was death. Marilyn Monroe and John Lennon led destructive lifestyles; the young girl and friends driving drunk made a very poor choice and it's fortunate that nobody else was killed (I'd say that was God looking out for others on the road with them!). All these individuals chose the dangerous actions that got them killed.
Being a Christian doesn't necessarily keep us from making poor choices, but hopefully those of us who have a relationship with Jesus Christ listen for His guidance and as a result, make wiser choices.
I agree, this email is a scare tactic, and while it's certainly a good warning about destructive behavior, the unspoken threat of God's punishment doesn't hold up when all the people mentioned did things that were likely to cause their deaths.
Paula
paula_pow@comcast.net
I'm an atheist and so I predictably baulked at this post. I was, therefore, pleased that Paula also saw fit to object. After all it is just a fact of life that we subject arguments we disagree with to more scrutiny than those which reinforce our beliefs. Of course, it could just be that Paula believes in a god which isn't as morally repugnant, vicious and plain evil than the one we can infer from the original post.
Why do I say this? Well it seems you are arguing that what is responsible for the gruesome deaths in the examples is that they'd mocked God. If that were the case such a God would have the morality of a spoilt child - once hurt they lash out. In this case the all-powerful extracting revenge on the powerless for nothing more than speaking their mind. I also feel that if you really believe God punished Lennon for a glib statement (by murder and then eternal torture in Hell) then my spoilt child metaphor doesn't go nearly far enough: most spoilt children are the moral superiors of such a monster.
I'll also disagree with Paula about Lennon living a destructive lifestyle. From what I've read and seen he was a gentle, caring and sincere man who sought to leave the world a better place than he found it. His dangerous lifestyle was not having a bodyguard and trusting to walk the street in a country where a mentally unstable man could easily obtain a handgun.
Paul
I am a strong Christian and in turn disagree totally with Paul.
I believe that God allows such things to happen as warnings to others who mock His name. He doesn't act as a spoiled child, He is GOD. The highest power in the universe. He is the King of Kings. When someone mocks a kings name, they are punished.
Those who deny the existence of God will be thoroughly surprised (and not in a good way)when their lives end.
Romans 1:18-20 says:
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
God has revealed Himself to everyone-through His glorious creation. There is no excuse for those who firmly deny the existence of God. God isn't someone to mess around with. He is a very just and loving God. He punishes those He loves, so that they will learn a lesson and not make the same mistake twice. Just like when a parent disciplines a child, God disciplines the people He created. Those in the original post obviously mocked and denied the Lord our God, and He in turn allowed them to be punished.
P.S. I pray, Paul, that you will see the light of Jesus.
Hi Kailey
> I believe that God allows such things to happen as warnings to
> others who mock His name.
You seem to believe your god "allows" this punishment. The God of the Christian faith is claimed to be both moral and just. Justice means punishment that fits the crime, equal treatment before the law and transparency so that the process is seen to be applied fairly.
So, does the punishment fit the crime in the above tales? Most people are mocked at many times in their lives yet the majority resist the urge to physically respond. That is a Christian ideal - turning the other cheek when tormented. Yet that doesn't apply to your god? You advocate a god that does the very opposite of what Jesus demands of his followers.
Equal treatment before the law is the opposite your god making an example of some as a "warning(s) to others". Oh, transparency is obviously totally missing too.
> He doesn't act as a spoiled child, He is GOD. The highest power in
> the universe. He is the King of Kings. When someone mocks a kings
> name, they are punished.
I actually said that even a spoilt child is the moral superior of such a god. A child may lash out when taunted but will stop soon enough. The kind of god posited by the original post allows murder and *eternal* torment because of a verbal slight. That is a nauseating moral position to defend.
Essentially, you are arguing that "might is right". You seem to think that whatever this god does is good by definition. Surely being good should be self-evident? Otherwise we have a Mad Hatter use of the English language where bad is good. To say a god is good when he allows or wills evil things to happen is simply incomprehensible (I take it as self-evident that tormenting or destroying someone is evil).
As for dictatorial Kings - the French knew what to do with them. We can live without both kings and gods.
> Those who deny the existence of God will be thoroughly surprised
(and not in a good way)when their lives end.
You assume the Christian God is a reality. From that perspective those of us who deny the existence of your god are denying reality and will get what's coming to us. The possibilities are that one or other of us may be right or we could both be wrong. Apollo is rumoured to have a bad temper too but neither of us is worried by that prospect.
> P.S. I pray, Paul, that you will see the light of Jesus.
The same Jesus who believed that the Son of Man would usher in his kingdom before some of his listers has tasted death (Matthew 16:28, Mark 9:1, Luke 9:27)? Where did he put his light then?
All the best
Paul (aka Stevie - its complicated)
Paul,
I am not assuming that the Christian God is real, I know He is real.
How can a child be the superior of God? That is ridiculous. God created us, therefore, no human can be superior to Him.
We don't always understand everything the God does, or allows to happen. But I know that everything happens for a reason, we may not understand what, but there is a reason for everything.
Jesus took the punishment of all of our sins, so we shouldn't question His judgments.
That is all I have to say.
Hi Kailey,
Thanks for your reply.
Its a shame you've decided to abandon any further discussion because I think you raise a lot of points that need explaining. For my part I'll answer those you raised from my perspective and be here should you find a better way to convince people reading here of why I'm wrong.
> I am not assuming that the Christian God is real, I know He is real.
Now you are simply asserting something. Delusional people often claim total fictions are true - and are sincerely convinced of it. If you really want to convince us of what you claim to know then it demands some kind of evidence.
> How can a child be the superior of God? That is ridiculous. God created us, therefore, no human can be superior to Him.
People often worship gods that they claim to be the creators but which are in many ways morally inferior to their worshipers. Think of the Pagan gods like Apollo or Quetzalcoatl and so on. People who worshiped those gods and behaved morally are indeed superior to the gods they worship.
Now you justify a view of the Christian God that I find perplexing. If he's good then he would behave in an obviously good way - and obviously better than a spoilt child. Yet even a spoilt child would tire of tormenting those who insult them. Your god dooms people to destruction for eternity for the same crime. I think its obvious he's less moral than many of his followers who turn the other cheek. So, it seems likely your god is just like the other make-believe Pagan gods.
If your god is good why is it not self-evident? Why does he do something so evil as doom people to destruction?
> We don't always understand everything the God does, or allows to happen. But I know that everything happens for a reason, we may not understand what, but there is a reason for everything.
Surely a perfect and just god (as the Christian God is claimed to be) would have no problems with people questioning Him because he's perfect and has nothing to hide?
It sounds like you really don't care much for whether something is really good. Your god can do anything - no matter how evil - and you simply will accept it must be good by definition.
> Jesus took the punishment of all of our sins, so we shouldn't question His judgments.
Which is the basic problem with all religion. It provides definite answers to life's imponderable questions but insists that you stop asking questions.
I'm also intrigued by the concept of sin and punishment. If sin means disobeying God then surely he'd have given us precise and unambiguous instructions on what to do and what not to do. Oddly, for most humans throughout history that's not been the case. Not very just to damn someone simply because they are ignorant is it?
Paul (aka Stevie)
I wasn't abandoning any further discussion, I just felt that that was all I had to say at that time. There is more where all of it came from. My heart and God's guidance.
>Now you are simply asserting >something. Delusional people >often claim total fictions are >true - and are sincerely >convinced of it. If you really >want to convince us of what you >claim to know then it demands >some kind of evidence.
There's evidence that God exists throughout creation/nature, and throughout all of history. God's hand is working even today. Also, Jesus says in the Bible that faith isn't seeing evidence and then believing, it is believing without visual evidence. That's the beauty of faith. But God does give evidence of His existence. The intricate design of the human body for example.
>If sin means disobeying God then >surely he'd have given us precise >and unambiguous instructions on >what to do and what not to do.
That's what the Bible's for. God gave us a guidebook so that we wouldn't have to go through life, blindly trying to figure out what is right and what is wrong.
>Not very just to damn someone >simply because they are ignorant >is it?
You're very right. It isn't. God doesn't just 'damn' people because they are ignorant. People make the choice to reject or accept God. Their decision affects where they go when they die. It isn't their ignorance at all, but rather what's in their hearts.
>Your god dooms people to >destruction for eternity for the >same crime. I think its obvious >he's less moral than many of his >followers who turn the other >cheek.
Like I said before. It's not necessarily what the people say with their mouth that causes them to be punished, it's what they have in their heart, or what they silently say with their mind. God can see into the deepest depths of our hearts and minds.
>If your god is good why is it not >self-evident? Why does he do >something so evil as doom people >to destruction?
God IS good. He sent His only son (Jesus) to come and die as a punishment for all of our sins. All we have to do is accept that and believe that Jesus is the only way to save us. Not our 'good works'. God doesn't 'doom' people. They make the decision to deny/reject God, or accept Him.
~Kailey
So God punishes people for what's in their hearts not for their glib comments? Well, at least that's less morally reprehensible that the position of the OP that you originally sought to defend. I'd be okay with that except of course your god is like Futurama's Santa Claus robot - the standard is set so high that everyone fails and hence is destroyed - oh unless they subscribe to the prescriptions of the faith that would otherwise condemn them.
I don't regard that as a free choice. In fact its the opposite - its abusive. Its "Do as I say or I will hurt you and do so forever!". Again I can't get past the fact that a god with the qualites attributed to the Christian God (love, mercy, forgiveness) can behave in a way that is morally inferior (unjust, arbitrary and downright vicious) to even his most imperfect followers. Your god truly is the moral inferior of the spoilt child - he gets to punish Jesus for people's sins and then punish the people themselves because he refused to provide any evidence of why we should take such claims seriously.
You claim that the universe speaks to a creator (the demiurge) and then leap to the conclusion the demiurge is the same God you believe in. So do Muslims, and Hindus and a zillion other faiths. Sorry, but it proves nothing because if I have to take your word for it then why should I not accept the others? A scientific understanding is far more majestic and explains much of how we come to be here - all without any demiurge at all!
People don't "make the decision" to deny or reject your god. If there was the slightest chance that you had even an inkling of the truth iun your assertions of judgment and punishment then we'd all be terrified and instantly seek escape from certain eternal torment. The fact we don't means we don't means we find such claims without any credibility. If someone is making a big claim it demands big evidence - the claims of Christianity are huge but there is nothing there to back it up. So, to say we deny your god is like saying we deny the tooth fairy. We're about as convinced of (or scared by threats from) one as for the other.
"I'd be okay with that except of course your god is like Futurama's Santa Claus robot - the standard is set so high that everyone fails and hence is destroyed - oh unless they subscribe to the prescriptions of the faith that would otherwise condemn them."
What's in your heart is essentially the most important part about a person. If people are very hostile towards the Lord, that means that their heart is full of hatred and evil. People who are full of evil have a whole lifetime to turn from their ways and follow God. Every religion has ways to get to heaven. (i.e. Hinduism is go through as many lifetimes as needed and be good enough to get to heaven.) There has an explanation for the existence of the world and there has to be a way to get to heaven. Jesus came to die....to DIE for you and me. And all He asks is that we follow Him and believe that He is the only way to salvation. Seriously, if you ask me, that's not mean or evil or cruel. That's like saying, here's a billion dollar bill, all yours for free. All Jesus asks us to do is to BELIEVE in Him. Faith as small as a mustard seed is all we are asked to give. If you have faith in Jesus, you are more powerful than any king or ruler on this earth. More powerful than the evil forces that are against all Christians.
"I don't regard that as a free choice. In fact its the opposite - its abusive. Its "Do as I say or I will hurt you and do so forever!"."
It is our choice to follow Jesus or not to. You choose to accept or reject Him, even if you're not physically saying "i won't follow you, Jesus".
"A scientific understanding is far more majestic and explains much of how we come to be here - all without any demiurge at all!"
Science can't prove anything. Scientific theories have been changed over and over again. Just like the theory that the universe revolved around the earth and the earth was flat. Seriously, science is changeable, God is unchangeable and so is the Bible.
Hi Kailey,
Its really good to hear from you. I'd almost given up on you.
"What's in your heart is essentially the most important part about a person."
I completely agree with the sentiment of this statement.
"If people are very hostile towards the Lord, that means that their heart is full of hatred and evil."
There you go again. Redefining evil to mean whatever you want it to and then justifying punishment for this new definition of evil. To rational and moral people evil is self-evident. Harming the innocent is evil. Torture is evil. Depriving an innocent person of liberty or freedom is evil. Not believing in a god is not evil. You don't believe in any of the Hindu deities. Does that make you evil? Of course not! Evil is something you do not some belief you do not hold..
"Jesus came to die....to DIE for you and me. And all He asks is that we follow Him and believe that He is the only way to salvation. Seriously, if you ask me, that's not mean or evil or cruel. That's like saying, here's a billion dollar bill, all yours for free. All Jesus asks us to do is to BELIEVE in Him."
I like your allegory. So I accept the gift of the bill but there's a catch: the bill is magic and can't be used to buy anything, no-one can see it, feel it or prove it exists. In exchange we let the giver of this gift tell us how to behave, vote, speak and to tell me what relationships I can and can't take part in. He says he's good and just looking out for my best interests but I am not sure.
Now then if I choose to adopt a skeptical mindset and reserve judgment the giver says that's not allowed. Worse, he decrees that such a position is evil and merits punishment. His accomplices take me away and torture me so that every waking second is misery. How is that in any sense a free choice and in what sense is this a gift?
It boils down to "I'll let you live if you love me or destroy you otherwise". Only a moral coward would love such a monstrous bully.
"Science can't prove anything. Scientific theories have been changed over and over again. Just like the theory that the universe revolved around the earth and the earth was flat. Seriously, science is changeable"
Scientists do change their opinion based on evidence. In that sense the scientific search for truth is always provisional - it is the best explanation we have based on the evidence available to us. Yet it can always can be overturned if we can prove its false. I work as a scientist and am excited by that - it means we don't get stuck with stupid dogmatic ideas and are free to challenge existing theories based on new evidence and findings. Thats actually a good thing.
"God is unchangeable and so is the Bible."
I can only conclude you don't know as much about the Bible or about your god as you think. The idea of the Christian God has certainly changed. Jewish believers do not usually recognise the Christian God as being the same as their own. That's for a good reason: the Christians re-invented Yahweh to be something other than what he was to the Jews. The idea of that god is very different to the god of Christians during the middle ages to that held by believers today.
As to the Bible, Its only recently that the Bible came to be the sole authority in the way modern Protestants see it. Even then they had to remove the deuterocanonical books and considered dropping others such as Hebrews, James and the Revelation of St John. The reason why we have different Bibles for Catholic and Protestant believers is down to the fact that they got rid of six books of what had been the Bible for a thousand years.
Anyway, lots of food for thought in this discussion. Keep it up.
"Not believing in a god is not evil."
Okay, that is true, but if you are hostile towards anyone or anything, including God, then your heart is obviously not completely full of kindness. So there is evil in there.
"the Christians re-invented Yahweh to be something other than what he was to the Jews."
No, Christians didn't re-invent Yahweh. Jews believe that the Messiah has not yet come. We believe that Jesus was the promised Messiah. Prophecies throughout Scripture were fulfilled through Jesus' humble birth, horrible death, and His miraculous resurrection. We didn't change God, we just believe that Jesus is the Messiah.
"Even then they had to remove the deuterocanonical books and considered dropping others such as Hebrews, James and the Revelation of St John."
I had only heard of this a few weeks ago in my Church History class. I knew that there was a Canon of Scripture, but didn't exactly know what it was or what it was about. I learned that early Church fathers (a few hundred years after Jesus' death and resurrection) went through the books that were in the Bible and prayed and discussed there worth and relevance, and then removed them from the Canon of Scripture. Christians have what we believe to be God's Word, and Catholics have something they believe to be God's Word. The thing is, it doesn't matter what books we believe to be God's Word or not. What matters is that we trust in Jesus for salvation and admit that He is the only way to be free from the bondage of sin and the only way to get to heaven. Yes, God's Word is very important in our spiritual growth, so if we go to the Bible for insight, we have to be sure that it is consistent with other teachings throughout.
You bring up good arguments. I am not capable of explaining everything (I'm not an expert in Biblical teachings and am most definitely nowhere close to being a pastor), but I'll try my best.
~Kailey
Hi Kailey,
Its nice to hear from you and you clearly have thought carefully so I'll try to do the same and avoid flippant remarks.
"Not believing in a god is not evil."
Okay, that is true, but if you are hostile towards anyone or anything, including God, then your heart is obviously not completely full of kindness. So there is evil in there.
You are defining evil to be hostility and an absence of kindness. The trouble with that is I think its both inconsistent and contrary to Jesus' example. Jesus clearly showed contempt for the religious authorities of his day calling them "whited sepulchres" and so on. As for the money-changers in the temple they were driven out with a whip - not exactly full of kindness. I do, however, understand why Christians think these were good acts. In the modern world I think virtuous hostility could be expressed toward fascism and the petty hatreds which that vile ideology exploits. So, for me, hostility can be a good thing and that is something I share with many Christians and even Jesus.
It is the question of hostility towards God where we differ. I'll put my opinion in the same terms I did earlier: hostility towards a god is not evil and I'm certain you agree with that for almost every god except yours. Lets be honest many gods are pretty despicable because (according to the believers) they either demand bad things of their believers or promote values which are self-evidently bad. For example, the Aztec god required human sacrifice, in Indonesia and Africa children are sometimes murdered for being witches and in many places young girls suffer genital mutilation (removal of the clitoris) often because of religious belief. Again, I think it is the correct thing to despise a belief system that justifies such actions.
If a believer (of any faith) worships a god whose behaviour would not be acceptable in a good human then its fair to claim they worship a bad god. Just because they claim their god is powerful is no reason to condone behaviour most people would consider bad. That's what I've been doing here. I don't believe in any gods and don't accept special pleading for the Christian God. If He is good - as believers claim - then it should be self-evident. If Christian believers claim their God is good but that he does otherwise I don't think its evil to point the contradiction and say that their deity is behaving badly (according to their testimony). As I said earlier: most believers behave much better than the gods they claim to worship.
"No, Christians didn't re-invent Yahweh. Jews believe that the Messiah has not yet come."
Christians very definitely changed the conception of God from that of Judaism. The concept of the trinity is entirely alien to Judaism (and supported by a single verse in James that is absent in the earliest existing copies of that letter). The messiah is not God incarnate in Jewish belief and he is not there to bear the sins of humanity through death - all these are Christian ideas that came into being after Jesus' death. Christians also rejected temple sacrifice, keeping of the Jewish sabbath and holidays, circumcision and the idea that the Jews are God's chosen people. The early Christians engaged in a monumental re-invention of the Jewish faith and of Yahweh. Before them there was one dominant idea of Yahweh and Judaism but after there were two quite different ideas. If you don't believe me ask at your local synagogue about their conception of Yahweh and pay careful attention to the answers.
"I knew that there was a Canon of Scripture, but didn't exactly know what it was or what it was about. I learned that early Church fathers (a few hundred years after Jesus' death and resurrection) went through the books that were in the Bible and prayed and discussed there worth and relevance, and then removed them from the Canon of Scripture."
By the fourth century Christians generally agreed on what books they believed to be definitive. It was eleven hundred years later that the protestants removed a number of books (and bits of Daniel and Esther) from the Old Testament. They wanted to remove a similar number of books from the New Testament for the same reasons used with the Old Testament but failed.
"Christians have what we believe to be God's Word, and Catholics have something they believe to be God's Word."
Catholics most definitely consider themselves to be Christians! So perhaps what you should have written is "Protestants have what we believe to be God's Word, and Catholics have something they believe to be God's Word". Even going along with the underlying presumption (that the Christian God exists) how can anyone decide who is right?
"The thing is, it doesn't matter what books we believe to be God's Word or not. What matters is that we trust in Jesus for salvation and admit that He is the only way to be free from the bondage of sin and the only way to get to heaven."
Surely if the Bible is God's Word then it is the most important document in the universe? It would be pretty mad to start ignoring the considered wisdom of the divine creator - especially given his penchant for wrath and anger. What if the bits of the Bible that have been discarded contain important advice that protestants are ignoring? (The Catholic Church argues just that). Its doubly important because the Bible is the only source for the claims you are making about Jesus, sin, heaven and salvation.
I suppose what I'm driving at is that the God many Christians claim to worship is self-evidently bad. To claim, as you did, that He is good - even when He does bad things - is delusional. I've offered reasons why I think such a conception of God is bad. That Christians are told to turn the other cheek when offended seems quite laudable. Their God, on the other hand, does no such thing and prepares eternal torment for those who offend Him. Do you see the contradiction?
Steve
Sorry for the long delay! I was visiting with relatives, and school has been crazy. I will reply to your comments as soon as possible. So please don't think I've given up. =)
-Kailey
No worries. Still listening.
Nobody commented on this in ages but I read this the other day and thought to post it here as a final sumamry. It seems to be a good summary of what evangelical Christians believe written from Yahweh's perspective:
“Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don’t have the good sense to cooperate with my son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment forever.”
Is that a fair summary? Are some of those He plans to torment eternally your loved ones and friends?
In any case, the forum here is quite exhausted and only former posters will probably read this. So Kailey, if you wish to continue to discuss this by email you can reach me at stevie-the-atheist@sedition.org.au Otherwise have a good life and enjoy yourself.
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